Burnout

Speaker 1: Hi everybody. Welcome back to Until It's Fixed. I'm one of your hosts this season. My name is Callie Chamberlain. I am one of Optum Social Responsibility leaders. I'm so excited to be here for season three and to continue a lot of the conversations that we had in season two. We also have some updates this season, so I'm excited to get into that. And you'll see some of the changes that we've made, including a new co-host. But really the core essence of this podcast remains the same, which is thinking about [00:00:30] health, the healthcare industry, talking with people who are influencers and experts to understand how the healthcare industry is being shaped This season, we're also gonna take a deeper dive into Whole Person Health because what we know is that 80% of our healthcare and our wellbeing really is happening outside of the doctor's office. We're gonna be covering a diversity of topics that I'm personally really excited to dive into, and I'm excited for you to join. So let's get started.

Speaker 1: Today [00:01:00] we're gonna be talking about burnout and quiet quitting, which are top of mind for a lot of people, myself included. And I think one of the things that is really interesting about this topic is that it's been around for a long time, and it's something that Covid just really elevated and brought to our attention. I think as home and work are being mixed together in this other way that we haven't experienced before, it's now something that employers and employees are having to face in a new way. We spend [00:01:30] so much of our lives at work and it's really important for us to think about how that stress and that pressure translates into our health and our wellbeing, and also our family lives. And so again, when we think about holistic health, I think about spiritual health and wellbeing. I think about community, I think about emotional, mental wellbeing.

Speaker 1: And I personally know that when I have a lot going on at work, it's hard to segment those things and not to let the stress that I feel in my day job [00:02:00] impact those other parts of my health and wellbeing. So I love this idea of, again, the holistic health, physical, mental, and how burnout really impacts all of it. Just to kind of give us some background on what I'm talking about when I talk about burnout, it's not just feeling tired. It's a really serious problem, and it's one that is only made worse if we try to just suck it up and push through. So according to the World Health Organization, burnout and overwork are responsible for 2.8 million deaths each [00:02:30] year. And when Covid hit, it made it worse for a lot of people. All of a sudden, we are a new environment, we had different stressors, we had different responsibilities, and all of that just amplified what was already a problem for a lot of people to begin with.

Speaker 1: A Gallup study that was done in April found that just 32% of US employees were actively engaged at work. So I think what that's telling us is that maybe we need to rethink how we're thinking about work and responsibilities. And [00:03:00] you know, part of the response to those questions that we're all holding is people quiet, quitting. And we're gonna learn a little bit more about what that means. But as we adjust to this new state of, you know, how things are operating, burnout is really being discussed more and more openly. And people may be rethinking their relationship to work. Today we spoke with Amy Carto, who is an employee assistance program manager with Optum Behavioral Health. She had a lot of really interesting things to say. Thank [00:03:30] you Amy, so much for joining us today. I'm really excited to have this conversation. Before we get started, can you just share a little bit about yourself with our audience?

Speaker 2: Sure. Hi Kelly. Thanks for having me. Um, I am a licensed therapist. I have been in the behavioral health field for about 20 years now. I've worn a lot of different hats clinically and in corporate roles. And right now I am managing the onsite e AAP services for a dedicated account. So what [00:04:00] I'm doing day to day is working with a team of licensed therapists that actually sit at different organizations to support employees and also support the organization itself and mental wellbeing and overall just kind of a mental health maintenance to the employee populations.

Speaker 1: And can you share with us what E a P means and what some of those services might look like?

Speaker 2: E A P stands for Employee Assistance program, and it is generally [00:04:30] seen as mental health and wellbeing support services. However, it really is a service that supports employees. Anything that is creating stress or any sort of need in the workplace, whether it's a workplace performance issue, whether it's dealing with stressful environments, whether it's a personal issue, employee assistance programs help to support employees to not only manage that stress, but to link to local [00:05:00] resources and community support to better navigate ultimately so that we can make sure that employees are functioning at their best level. The other side of that is supporting the organization. So employee assistance programs work with leadership and different teams within the organizations to make sure that their employee populations are being supported.

Speaker 1: Oh, that's so helpful. So when we talk about burnout, I'm sure you're hearing about a lot of that, seeing a lot of that. So can you just help us understand what is it?

Speaker 2: [00:05:30] The World Health Organization actually has identified burnout as an actual medical diagnosis. So ultimately burnout is a syndrome that results from chronic workplace stress, and it's really marked by that energy depletion or exhaustion, feeling cynical or negative to your work and just an overall reduced efficacy. I like to point out the difference between stress and burnout. So when we're [00:06:00] talking about stress, really what we're talking about is a difficulty to cope with different pressures. But when we're talking about burnout, we're talking about kind of just being out of gas completely, like the tank is empty. And beyond that, you've also given up on hope of even being able to overcome these obstacles. So it's a full depletion, there's a detachment, there's a disillusionment around yourself and your work.

Speaker 1: Wow. And when we talk about burnout, is it specific to the working environment?

Speaker 2: [00:06:30] If we look at it by definition we're talking about workplace stress. However, what you'll notice is that your symptoms and how you experience your whole life is completely impacted by burnout. You would find yourself depleted at home, maybe not engaging in some of the enjoyable activities that you used to do. You could find some sleep disruptions, some eating disruptions or appetite disruptions. But you'll see it's pervasive throughout your life. And I do like to just distinguish [00:07:00] when we talk about workplace burnout. Unmanaged stress has a shared responsibility, you know, on the individual, but as well as the organization, right? It's not just the individual not being able to manage their stress, but sometimes it's stressful, circumstances pile up and it's been sustained and unmanageable. It is not a sudden experience. It is something that is gradual and can kind of sneak up on people. So one of the most important things when we talk about burnout [00:07:30] is checking in on yourselves and reflecting and making sure that you are regularly acknowledging how you're feeling, both in the workplace, but also in your personal life as well.

Speaker 1: Hmm. And what I'm thinking about as you're speaking is there, I'm wondering if there's a spectrum of burnout and how bad it can be and what some of those events might look like on a spectrum or timeline.

Speaker 2: Sure. So I, I think that certainly there ranges in severity, right? But we're looking mostly [00:08:00] at again, that feeling that you are completely out of gas, right? So you're entirely depleted, you have very low motivation, you're exhausted. But the other thing about burnout is it makes you less able to cope with stress also. So you're feeling very overwhelmed by even just kind of the day-today activities and perceiving those as being so stressful and difficult to manage. So it is kind of a, a what came first, the chicken or the egg when it comes to stress and burnout, and [00:08:30] it can be a fine line where you are stressed out versus when you are burnt out.

Speaker 1: Hmm. That's a really good distinction. And I'm wondering how people can sort of check in with themselves as they're approaching that place, because some of it might feel pretty subtle, but I'm curious what you're seeing and what your thoughts are.

Speaker 2: We like to tell people the best thing that you can do is truly reflect and almost take a self inventory regularly, even if you think that [00:09:00] everything is going well, it is really important to have these moments where you do kind of this purposeful pause, right? And check in on yourself. Am I feeling okay? Check in on your passion about workplace. Are you still feeling motivated by your job? Are you still feeling inspired? Do you still feel committed to some of those core values that brought you into the work that you're doing? And as long as people are kind of keeping up with checking in on themselves, [00:09:30] it's really helpful for people to then identify, oh, you know what? I noticed that I'm not doing as well as this area. That could be a key indicator for me. I should start managing my stress a little bit more.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. I'm wondering too, do you feel like there are more or specific types of people or personalities that are more susceptible to burnout?

Speaker 2: So that's a really good question. Not so much personalities, but what I do think is that there [00:10:00] are some preexisting health conditions that certainly take energy from us, which then leave us more susceptible to being able to manage that stress and then ultimately that prolonged stress, which can then lead to burnout. So for example, if you have a medical condition or if you are struggling with an episode of depression, those types of conditions require a lot of energy to manage. Um, so that if you're also [00:10:30] under kind of this unsustainable workload that's even more so, you can't put energy into that direction and you're more susceptible to burnout. For sure.

Speaker 1: That makes sense. I'm wondering what you're seeing employers do that can also address burnout and quiet quitting, which we'll get into in a second, in a more, more comprehensive way. But we're talking a lot about the individual and what are you thinking or seeing that employers are doing or that a system can do to help address some of these challenges?

Speaker 2: What I am [00:11:00] seeing is that number one, there's just more attention in general. I think we're more connected than we ever have been through technology, right? So burnout is not a new issue. However, it is being spoken about loudly and organizations are responding. I think if you were to look, we're we're noticing that organizations are working very hard to understand the needs of their workers and understanding what the cultures are in those work environments. [00:11:30] They're asking employees for feedback, they're looking at ways to improve access to behavioral healthcare benefits. They're looking at improving access to mental wellbeing support services. So they are doing a lot of work to help support employees just to access services and get support in what they can do.

Speaker 1: Got it. That makes sense. We might be a little bit early on in this, but are you seeing any interventions that feel especially promising in that space?

Speaker 2: Well, from [00:12:00] the perspective of employee assistance and right, and in the employee assistance world, what we're noticing is that there has been quite an increase in requesting either therapists or trainers to come into the workplace and educate their employees around stress management around preventing burnout. So what we're seeing is some more onus on the organization to educate their employees about how to identify burnout and what they can do about [00:12:30] it to help manage their stress, to prevent burnout. And we're seeing a lot of internal work that's happening throughout organizations. Organizations are really looking at what are they doing that are causing stressful conditions for their employees, and then making those changes internally. It's a long road, but we are starting to see some of those small changes.

Speaker 1: That's great. That's part of what I'm reflecting on as we're talking is I think it's easy for us to sort of look inward and say, oh, we [00:13:00] have to reduce our stress. We have to find other ways to recharge and sort of thinking about our individual actions. But also if the demands of the workplace require sustained output and a lot of intensity, I think that can be a challenging rub. So I'm happy to hear that. It seems like it's both the problem is being addressed from both ends.

Speaker 2: It is, yeah, it certainly is. I, and again, that is on a spectrum, right? I think some organizations are doing that at a more accelerated rate where other organizations [00:13:30] might just be catching on right now, but I do anticipate there will be more of a shift. But to your point, I do think that term quiet quitting, I think that there's a lot of trend happening right now, and employees are really verbalizing how unsustainable some of these work conditions are. And they're reacting to that. And because of that, employers and organizations are listening and they are making changes.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Thank you for bringing us back to that. Tell us more about the quiet quitting. I've seen this everywhere and I'm [00:14:00] curious what your thoughts are and how it differs from burnout.

Speaker 2: Sure. So quiet, quitting is a trend name, right? Somebody on TikTok came up with that term, and it's basically, you know, to, to very loosely define it as to, is to put some boundaries around your, your work and what you're doing around your output. The way I perceive quiet quitting is really a term on a spectrum, right? So it could be anything from somebody deciding that, you know what, I am not going to answer any [00:14:30] emails after 6:00 PM at night, which could be a very appropriate boundary. But if they had historically always done that, that could be a version or an example of what quiet quitting is. But then we have the other extreme right, where we have people that have decided to do the very bare minimum and call it quiet quitting. But ultimately what we're noticing is that the term quiet quitting, it's a way to describe establishing some limits and some boundaries around the [00:15:00] work that people are doing.

Speaker 1: Okay. And then is there anything in particular you would say that differentiates quiet quitting from burnout?

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I, I do think that they're very different. I think that quiet quitting could possibly be a symptom of burnout, but burnout is a much larger, and you know, it's a more personal issue. Quiet, quitting is kind of almost the verb, right? It's the, it's the reaction to feeling burnt out when you have nothing left to give. [00:15:30] Whereas quiet quitting is, you're still at that part where I'm just not gonna do anything more in this arena.

Speaker 1: Got it. And I'm curious how you see burnout and potentially even quiet quitting as well pertaining to personal life or even caring for family members and some of these other responsibilities that people have that as we're discussing are sort of melded now into the workplace environment. If folks are working from home,

Speaker 2: I think the pandemic created a lot of that first time people working [00:16:00] out of the home, right? And so where boundaries may have been blurry to begin with, they just almost disappeared, right? People were doing both personal things as well as work things and trying to juggle all of that at the same time. Um, so things kind of bled together. And what you're gonna see is when you're feeling burnt out, it is not specific to one task. When you're feeling burnt out, you're feeling burnt out everywhere, right? You're burnt [00:16:30] out from having to do childcare needs or elder care needs, or just keeping the same daily tasks that you normally would do. No problem. You're feeling exhausted by, one of the things that we did see a lot of was women leaving the workforce during the pandemic because it was just too much demand during working parenting. You know, a lot of mothers had to do homeschooling for their children or virtual schooling for their children, and [00:17:00] it ended up being too much. And I think that that was a direct result of that unsustainable drive and pressure from both the workplace, but also of the personal life. And you saw people just starting to check out.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I just wrote a report actually that said that one in three women across the country are considering downshifting their careers because of burnout. So I, I think that's a really important point for us to consider when we think about leadership and diversity of leadership and retention of our employees. And also [00:17:30] just again, to your point, the recognition of expanded responsibilities. So for folks who are feeling like they might be approaching, you know, burnout or feeling like the quiet quitting is starting to feel resonant toward them, what resources or options are available for support?

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I, I think now more than ever, we do have a lot of options and one of the benefits that did come out of the pandemic is that we have more accessibility to some [00:18:00] of these resources. So first, an employee assistance programs are pretty available at most organizations, and it's an, it's usually an unknown benefit to people, but EAPs could be a one stop shop. They link to mental health professionals. There's a lot of self-service tools that are available, but there's a lot of immediate response. One of the other things that we were seeing are long wait times to get see therapists and employee assistance [00:18:30] programs. They offer that immediate support, that immediate in the moment coaching. And then we have a ton of apps. There's a ton of really great apps that you can use to help with relaxation, to help with building resiliency and to help with just general stress management.

Speaker 1: I love that. That's great. This has been such a great conversation, Amy. And something in the work we're going to include this season that we had from last season is the lightning round. And that is just a series of quick questions that are a little lighter for us to end on. [00:19:00] So our first question is, what drives your passion for what you do?

Speaker 2: I think that for me, what drives my passion the most is actually seeing improvement. Um, when you work in the behavioral health field, people come to you at their lowest point. And when you work with people or even with organizations and you kind of coach those people on how to create change and then watch them work through that and start to see results, I find that to be so [00:19:30] inspiring, uh, and it really drives me to continue with my motivation and passion for this work.

Speaker 1: What is giving you hope right now?

Speaker 2: The thing that seems most hopeful to me is how much our communities and our organizations and our overall culture is responding to the idea of burnout and needing to change and recognizing the need to change.

Speaker 1: And last question. What is the most impactful professional lesson that you've learned?

Speaker 2: [00:20:00] That's a very tough question. I think the most important thing is that understanding that change is a constant, I think I hear most often from people that, you know, when are things gonna go back to normal? And I think it's important that we all recognize that change is probably the one constant that we have in our lives. So it's not about preventing change or, um, railing against [00:20:30] change, but kind of embracing our own signature strengths to get through the change, and recognizing that we all have our own really awesome coping skills to get through change.

Speaker 1: That is beautiful. Thank you again for joining us. You are a wealth of information and we so appreciate your time.

Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Kelly. I truly appreciate being here.

Speaker 1: We just heard from Amy about how important it is [00:21:00] to identify and address burnout for the sake of our physical and mental health. Like all of you, I spend most of my time throughout the day at work. And so when I have a lot of pressure or stress in my day job, it is personally hard for me to separate that from the rest of my wellbeing. And so, again, when we think about holistic health, when we think about most of our health being dictated by what's happening outside the doctor's office, it is so important to think about how things like burnout really impact our holistic [00:21:30] wellbeing. In this conversation, we also touched on quiet quitting, which is a term that went viral from a TikTok post. And since then it's been all over Instagram in the news and even academic journals. So maybe this is a familiar term to you.

Speaker 1: It was to me. And then during this conversation, I learned a lot more about what this actually encompasses To me, I think this is really interesting because it represents a reprioritization of what's important to us and thinking differently about how we direct energy to [00:22:00] different parts of what's meaningful. So I personally am loving this conversation and also the opportunity to reflect on what's really important and what really matters and using part of, you know, what happened during the pandemic as an opportunity to sort of reset. And in this conversation with Clayton Ferris, who's an actor whose name you might recognize, we're gonna talk a little bit more about his TikTok posts on quiet quitting that have been getting a lot of attention on major media outlets like The Today Show and learning about what his [00:22:30] thoughts are. Clayton, thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to talk to you. Tell our audience who you are, what you do, and anything else about your background that you think is important for us to know.

Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. First of all, this is so cool. I am an actor and, uh, a writer and a content creator. I think that's what we're called out here in la. But I, I also write for film and TV and then I make [00:23:00] comedy videos that people seem to relate to on Instagram and, and TikTok. But recently I started talking about quiet quitting, which is like this trending term that we've all heard. Maybe you've heard it, right?

Speaker 1: I have. But tell us how you would define it.

Speaker 3: Uh, well, uh, essentially quiet quitting is, um, this movement that's happening amongst kind of employees in the workforce where employees are realizing that they are kind of killing themselves [00:23:30] for their jobs, overworking, doing too much, and maybe some of the rewards of all of that are not the same as they used to be. So some people are waking up, they're not, it's not that they're quitting their jobs, everyone's still working. It's just they're realizing that family life, free time, vacation, whatever it is, is actually now, it's not like in the future. It's now mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it, that's what I, how I kind of define it. I think it's a horrible term because quitting is [00:24:00] involved and there's no quitting happening. Like no one's quitting. We all, everyone that's part of this movement understands that work is part of life and is actually very hard workers then I think that's just like a misnomer.

Speaker 1: The way I'm hearing you describe it is almost like a step back to define personal success and align into values. And so tell me, as an entrepreneur and an actor and someone who's very multi-dimensional, what does quiet quitting mean to you? And how might that be different than someone who's working a traditional [00:24:30] nine to five job?

Speaker 3: So, I, I feel like freelancers are kind of like extra bad at this, this like self-care thing when it comes to work. And I personally had found myself in a position where I was experiencing a lot of kind of like health problems from the stress of like not being able to, to stop and not being able to appreciate anything I have and only stressing and go, go going and, and [00:25:00] never, never stopping. It got to be too much because my anxiety and just general wellbeing kind of like was suffering from it. And so, interestingly enough, I, I don't even feel like I had a choice in the matter. It's like I had to do something kind of drastic for me to make a change, to be able to like come back to earth <laugh> and not, not be so in my head and so anxious. I find myself [00:25:30] not enjoying the day, not doing things I want to, cuz I just, I'm so, I wanna just sit there and like stress about what's next mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I'm like, that does not offer anything. It's like sitting there for a day and stressing about what's next does not bring anything n next It doesn't help you get to the next place, but maybe going to the beach one day or going to do something you love that day is gonna actually help you get to the next spot. But, so it's like you're not wasting [00:26:00] time, you're not doing anything wrong by enjoying yourself. You're just, you're allowing yourself to have these in between moments. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that'll help you get to the next accomplishment.

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. And what I'm thinking about is even Olympic athletes need to rest, right? They have to recharge, they're letting their bodies come back into a more neutral space where then they can go all out and be at their best in terms of performance. So, you know, it's important for us to recognize we can do that too.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And we don't, we don't treat ourselves [00:26:30] that way, but like our, if you're a creative person and, and someone that is coming up with ideas all the time, you have to allow yourself to rest or they're not, it's not gonna come. I think that for most people it's the fact that when work moved to to home, there was no separation. So no one was allowing themselves to, to stop and take a break and your computer's now like in your bedroom or it's in the kitchen or whatever. So no matter what, when you're seeing that, you're like, oh, you're reminded of work that needs to happen. And [00:27:00] so we all just lost track of the separation of home and work. But also we felt the pressure that, okay, now everyone's working from home. There are gonna be people that are like working 24 hours a day and we have to like keep up with those people.

Speaker 3: Like if we're not doing as much as so and so, then we're not enough. And I think that what happened is people started um, kind of beating themselves up and like their, their kind of was like this new mindset from employers that like, [00:27:30] okay, well you're not working 20 hours a day. Well so-and-so is like, why aren't you doing that? So then there became this like mindset that like if someone doesn't work 24 hours a day, maybe they're lazy or they don't care about the job. So it just, it it all kind of got like knocked out of whack. You know, the system, the way it used to work kind of got shifted. And I think that people just are, are at a tipping point.

Speaker 1: I'm hearing a lot of people talk about the pandemic, I'm hearing about the work life integration in a different way. Like what was [00:28:00] it for you?

Speaker 3: It was like the hustle, the go, go go. And I got to the space where I was so trapped in my head, so anxious about things that it started making me sick and I had to stop. It just allowed me to really see that like there's an alternative and I don't, my work has not suffered at all. I'm actually a better worker. I'm a better creative person. The only thing that's different is I'm gentler on myself. I'm, I'm allow myself to, [00:28:30] to just enjoy life cuz we're not enjoy, no one's enjoying life anymore. <laugh>, which is art. And it's so simple. And I mean, to go a little woowoo, I talk about how for a lot of, and I know people can relate to this cuz most of us are this way when we have a lot of desires and goals that we've set for ourselves and we kind of believe in like maybe the universe providing or like laying out your path. All we've been doing is like clenching so quiet, quitting is this kind of like [00:29:00] unc unclenching that's happening. And it's, it's allowing more good things to come to us without much changing except mental state, quiet. Quitting is just a mental, it's a, it's a self-care technique. That's all it is. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: So what would you say to people who might have some resistance to this idea of quiet, quitting or feel like folks just need to work harder or that's just what's expected of you in the workplace?

Speaker 3: I think there is value and hard work and [00:29:30] really going for something and building success and building a life. But I just think it's not okay for people to define someone's worth by only like their job and what they do. I think it's just offering a little grace to people and realizing that we're like, we, like we talk about in functional medicine, it's like everyone is their own individual. It's not the same prescription, the same plan does not work for [00:30:00] everybody. And I think that's the same for work, that's the same for just life in general. It's everyone's life has value no matter how they're living it. And I think that what is coming from the newer generation is just kind of like being okay with like alternative lifestyles across the board. Like that means just how you live, what you value. Just not judging people for that aren't like you. I think it comes down to like that, I don't [00:30:30] know if I have the answers <laugh>. I just think it's about like, yeah, not judging people and knowing that other people are different and knowing that people are struggling these days. Yeah. And mental health is a big problem for people and we can't, we can't talk about it like just as an excuse or as a weakness. We have to like address like that. It really is affecting people.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think we are just starting to understand the mind body connection, how important those things are. [00:31:00] So quiet ac quitting and burnout are things that might have negative connotation, but there's so many silver threads that are also possible as a result of these conversations. So what do you think can start to shift now that we're actually talking about what some of these challenges are?

Speaker 3: I feel like what the pandemic taught us and what, uh, kind of like the overall world is teaching us right now is that there's alternative ways to do things. There's different [00:31:30] ways, there's different systems that could work better, especially individually. Like we can each individually find things that work better for us. And I think it's just once, I think these conversations are so good because it's, it is, it is about prioritizing what works for you and just, it's not, I just wanna reiterate, quiet. Quitting has nothing to do with not working. It's about people taking care of themselves and, and realizing that we have one life to live. Make it a good one. We all acknowledge we have to work. [00:32:00] That's a given. No one's asking for anything free. That's like the, you understood. No one's questioning that, but it's like, how can I work and enjoy my life and be a success and be happy? It's like, let's figure out how to do that because it's, it's possible.

Speaker 1: Yeah. That's great. Thank you so much. And we are gonna wrap up by doing the lightning round. So I'm gonna ask you,

Speaker 3: I've always wanted to do one of these <laugh>

Speaker 1: Clayton, your dreams are coming true right now. Okay. <laugh>.

Speaker 3: I'm serious.

Speaker 1: Okay. I love it. All right. So the first one is, what's giving you hope right now?

Speaker 3: [00:32:30] People talking about quiet quitting.

Speaker 1: What is the most recent thing that you've learned?

Speaker 3: How to love myself because I've, I never, that's anoth whole nother topic, but I think people don't even know what that means, especially men.

Speaker 1: And what's something that has surprised you in a good way recently?

Speaker 3: Um, I think just like the fact that some things that I've been working towards that I thought were pipe dreams are starting to come true for me.

Speaker 1: That's beautiful. Thank you for joining us.

Speaker 3: Thank [00:33:00] you.

Speaker 1: One of the things that I really appreciated about my conversation with Clayton is the emphasis on taking care of our own mental physical health and making sure that that is prioritized above almost anything else. Because if you think about it, if we're not well as individuals, it's really hard to be well in other parts of our lives and to continue to be able to uphold our responsibilities and to be healthy, productive, [00:33:30] functioning members of our family, our community, our society, et cetera. I also really appreciated that this conversation doesn't just talk about the individual and put the emphasis and the expectation on us as people to navigate this on our own. But really calling our employers and big organizations into the conversation to help us understand how we can find a solution that works for everyone. Meaning that it's really challenging to tell an individual, Hey, it's [00:34:00] important that you're sleeping and finding time to be with your family.

Speaker 1: And then from an employment perspective, providing a lot of pressure and deadlines and expectations that don't allow for both things to exist. I know that that's possible. So I'm really happy that that also came into the conversation to again, think about how our work environments can be healthy, how we can be healthy, and how we can really recognize that burnout doesn't just impact our work. It negatively impacts our overall wellbeing in the short term and [00:34:30] the long term. So also as we heard from Clayton, he is self-employed, which I'm sure a number of our listeners are as well. And I think the point that he makes about being your own advocate is also really important because in those situations you may not have access to the same resources that an employee would, meaning that there might not be an employee assistance program available or therapy that's covered by your employer. So making sure that you're really being, you know, your own supporter and you are just checking [00:35:00] in with yourself and understanding what it is that you need and prioritizing that for your own wellbeing is really important in situations where you maybe aren't working with a team of people who are naturally providing that checkpoint for you.

Speaker 1: I often leave these conversations wondering what I can do and how I can use what I learned from our guests. So the bonus episodes this season will dig into that one thing we can do or change in our own lives related to these big topics and talking a little bit more about what that might look like. So we'll see you next week for the bonus episode. [00:35:30] Thank you so much for joining and please subscribe if you have not done so.